Question
Asked 24th Dec, 2018

What is the most dangerous, Snake bite or Scorpion sting?

What is the most dangerous, Snake bite or Scorpion sting? And Why?

Most recent answer

Naïrouz Benzeggouta
Université de M'sila
Thanks again Bernhard,
In Algeria and Arab region there is a great interest to scorpion sting more than snake bite, and I want to know if really scorpion is dangerous or snake.
But these answers from you and other researchers gave me an other view of point.
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Popular answers (1)

Bernhard Rupert Hochwimmer
B Hochwimmer & Associates Pty Ltd
There is a large effort in Oz to utilize venom in medical research that includes arthropods. For example the Frazer Island Funnel Web Spider, one of the worlds most deadliest, has a toxin peptide (Hi1a) with stroke utility, going into human trials. Much work on these toxins is done at the University of Queensland, (eg Prof. King's Lab) which stores toxins and analyses from over 600 species.
When a stroke occurs, the oxygen deprived brain induces lactic acidosis that turns on acid-sensing ion channels. This sets up a destructive wave through the brain neurones in 'blocks'. Stroke is the second leading cause of death, and has the highest morbidity. So this research is important.
The funnel web spider peptide blocks the acid sensing ion channel, and therefore may abrogate the worst destructive phase of stroke.
From a Geological perspective I suspect siliceous geology has bearing on Funnel Web spider toxicity, for I find it interesting that the toxicity of the Sydney funnel web Spider, also one for the most toxic, if not most deadly spider worldwide, decreases in distance away form Sydney. The sediments here are the highly siliceous sandstones of the Permian basin graben. Likewise the Frazer Island Funnel Web spiders, but very distant from Sydney, also has habitat of highly siliceous sediments and sands, with Palaeozoic sediments between these locations.
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All Answers (13)

Dikansh Parmar
Veer Narmad South Gujarat University
It depends on species, type of bite (some times dry bites occurs from venomous snakes in this case venom is not injected in body by snake) and area of bite on body, venomous and non venomous snakes and scorpions both are there but in your question we can say that bites from snakes are more dangerous because snake bites occurs more and widely around world snake bites can occur in forest, urban rural, wetlands, rivers, hillyarea or sea, snakes are more widely distributed we have sea snakes too which are more venomous than land snakes so death from snake bites are more than scorpions, hence according to me i think snake bites are dangerous but on other hand if a victim gets antivenom within time then bites from both animals are cureable. Also some of geographical regions do not have venomous scorpions and some may not have venomous snakes too so it also depends on biodiversity of particular region.
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Naïrouz Benzeggouta
Université de M'sila
Thank you Puveanthan and Dikansh for your help.
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Dikansh Parmar
Veer Narmad South Gujarat University
Your welcome take care.
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Bernhard Rupert Hochwimmer
B Hochwimmer & Associates Pty Ltd
Mostly in Aus. Land based it is the Fierce snake, a small inland TIEPAN (Oxyuranus microlepidotus) from Australia, as No 1 in toxicity. The large 'Eastern brown', a large TIEPAN snake, is No 2. The Brown, (South East Aus.) a medium sized TIEPAN (still dam long!) is no 3, while our Tiger Snake is No 4 in world of snake toxicity. CSIRO have done works on all snakes here if you need detailed information on toxin biochemistry and physiology.
Working as a geologist I had been bitten by a SE brown. Fortunately the first bit is not deadly as it primes its poison along front teeth groves, ready for the second deadly bit. Toxicity is from combined, haematological, muscular, and neurotoxins.
For the Fierce (rare) and Eastern Brown, forget antivenin, you have only minute to live from these snakes. Eastern brown you need antivenin on the spot, depending, on the bite, but if antivenin is close you may live, usually not the case. Sea snakes may be very poisonous here to, numerous in some areas. I have seen plenty drilling in Sharks Bay, Western Australia, hundreds in one night, come to water surface to eat small crabs surfacing in moonlight in shallow waters.
Black snakes eat tiger snakes and if bitten well by a Red Bellied Black you have about 8 hours to live without antivenin. It is said the Tiger Snake is aggressive. I have never found this in field works, perhaps due to cold climate habitat. The brown loves heat ands is very active and dangerous in temperament. I tried to save one on a road (there are too many animal deaths Oz roads) and it threw itself in the air to get at me! Our scorpions are not dangerous compared to African scorpions, but can cause diseases. The Boa's are interesting as they have reversible cardiomyopathy to increase the size of the heart so as to deal with digestion of meals. This is interesting from the perspective that toxins in other snakes have cardiac applications in humans. I do wonder about a cure for some forms of human cardiomyopathy, given the reversibility of this physiology in some Boa's.
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Naïrouz Benzeggouta
Université de M'sila
Many thanks Bernhard for these clarifications.
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Bernhard Rupert Hochwimmer
B Hochwimmer & Associates Pty Ltd
You are Welcome Nairouz, some more follows.
It should be mentioned, whilst 10 of the most toxic snakes live in Australia, very few deadly bites occur, due to low rural population, education, treatment knowledge and access to antivenin. This contrasts to Asia, where some 10,000 deaths may occur annually in India alone, of some 1Million estimated snake bites humans receive globally. It may be that on proper analyses we find similar snake toxicities in regions of India to those of Australia, given their common Gondwanan geotectonic and biogeographic heritage.
Interestingly snake haemotoxin is researched to treat heart attacks. AEC inhibitors contain modified snake venom. Tiger snake neurotoxin, taipoxin has application in neuromuscular mechanisms. Haemotoxin are more common in Vipers, neurotoxin in Elapids.
Also interesting, toxicity may vary within species geographically. I wonder about toxic levels links with geology. We discovered an unnamed species in some 40 garner hills in Western Australia's Gascoyne region (using UV light to scan to prospect tungsten, the snake fluoresced, but got aggressive with UV. Not a good place to get bitten took us 36 hours drive into this remote location and I suspected it was related to the Fierce snake). The body was drab brown, like the andradite garnet of these kopjes, that were some 30m high. The heads were green like aplite veins running through these hills of solid andradite, essentially islands to these snakes in desert terrain.
The bioactive saliva toxins of snakes include proteins, peptides and small molecules, the mix of which is pertinent in physiological effects. It's an active area of forward and reverse pharmacology research into therapeutic benefits and biological mechanisms of snake venom components. Of the 20 or so molecules in snake venom saliva, many have non lethal functions in digestion etc.
As I mentioned this is interesting from the perspective that toxins in other snakes have cardiac applications in humans and I wonder therefore about a cure for some forms of human cardiomyopathy, given the reversibility of this physiology in some snakes. Perhaps an interesting avenue of research.
My geo-toxicity linked hypothesise here is based on knowing that disulphide rich venoms may well be influenced by mineralisation terrains geologically but also selenium rich areas since selenium in peptides may be involved in protein folding and therefore enzymatic activity of toxins (and perhaps amelioration agents thereof).
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Srini Vasan
University of New Mexico
The brown recluse species of the spider is dangerous. Other than that generally snake bites can be deadly especially from some of the species in Australia and the krait in India.
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Bernhard Rupert Hochwimmer
B Hochwimmer & Associates Pty Ltd
There is a large effort in Oz to utilize venom in medical research that includes arthropods. For example the Frazer Island Funnel Web Spider, one of the worlds most deadliest, has a toxin peptide (Hi1a) with stroke utility, going into human trials. Much work on these toxins is done at the University of Queensland, (eg Prof. King's Lab) which stores toxins and analyses from over 600 species.
When a stroke occurs, the oxygen deprived brain induces lactic acidosis that turns on acid-sensing ion channels. This sets up a destructive wave through the brain neurones in 'blocks'. Stroke is the second leading cause of death, and has the highest morbidity. So this research is important.
The funnel web spider peptide blocks the acid sensing ion channel, and therefore may abrogate the worst destructive phase of stroke.
From a Geological perspective I suspect siliceous geology has bearing on Funnel Web spider toxicity, for I find it interesting that the toxicity of the Sydney funnel web Spider, also one for the most toxic, if not most deadly spider worldwide, decreases in distance away form Sydney. The sediments here are the highly siliceous sandstones of the Permian basin graben. Likewise the Frazer Island Funnel Web spiders, but very distant from Sydney, also has habitat of highly siliceous sediments and sands, with Palaeozoic sediments between these locations.
.
4 Recommendations
Naïrouz Benzeggouta
Université de M'sila
Very interesting Bernhard, thank you.
3 Recommendations
Bernhard Rupert Hochwimmer
B Hochwimmer & Associates Pty Ltd
Your welcome Nairouz, yes its a very interesting area of research. Hope of some help to go further in yours.
3 Recommendations
Naïrouz Benzeggouta
Université de M'sila
Thanks again Bernhard,
In Algeria and Arab region there is a great interest to scorpion sting more than snake bite, and I want to know if really scorpion is dangerous or snake.
But these answers from you and other researchers gave me an other view of point.
1 Recommendation

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What about complete() function of the mice package in R?
Question
2 answers
  • Florent MichelotFlorent Michelot
Hi everyone,
I would like your opinion on using the complete() function of the mice package on R.
Theoretically, after multiple imputations, analyses should be performed on each imputed dataset, and then the results of the analyses should be pooled (see attached diagram).
However, I consider the complete() function. In summary, it permits generating a unique final dataset using the results of multiple imputations previously performed with the mice() function. This strategy is easy, "inexpensive," and allows us to manipulate only one dataset.
This is a concrete example of the usefulness of this strategy. I am conducting mixed-methods research in which I want to interview some participants after analyzing their responses to my survey. If my respondent John Doe did not answer to an item of a scale, I would risk having 5 plausible answers from John Doe after multiple imputations (if m=5, or 20 plausible responses if m=20, etc.). However, the complete() function will summarize the different estimates into one dataset (instead of 5, or 20, etc.). Basically, during an interview, I will be able to question John Doe based on his scale score computed with NA replacement. So I lose precision, but gain in ability to exploit the answers.
However, this approach seems problematic, as the literature does not support it well. In fact, except for this paper by van Buuren et al. (2011, cf. section 5.2), I cannot find any source that supports this approach:
Well, I'm stuck between a rock (a more rigorous approach, i.e. the pooling) and a hard place (a more practical approach, i.e. the complete() function). What do you think?
Hope to read you (and my apologies for my broken English)
FM

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