Some countries in East Europe: Serbia and Bosnia, are experiencing destructive floods. What systems would be needed to prevent sudden severe floods?

I found this:

'During testing, Tiger Dams™, the world’s most rigorously tested reusable flood control product, were set up in 1/5 the time of sandbags at less than 1/3 the cost and vehemently withstood high velocity riverine currents, giant logs, underwent intensive wave testing and were over-topped without failure.'

Dear Miranda,

The answer is simple. One should use forecasting and repair and reconstruct dikes and embankments in time. Raining started to fall heavily several weeks ago.

Sometimes, natural floods cannot be stopped. What we can do is to make it part of our lives. We can build easy-to-relocate houses in flood-prone areas and keep portable appliances inside.

Our experience in our community is really like that- we cannot control floods- the big ones.

Dear Miranda,

András is right. But all dams and other constructs don´t avoid the next flood catastrophy. The reasons are much worse. It´s the complete abuse of landscapes, stubbing land, not enough forests etc. One of the bad consequences are these horrible landslides, for which no simple technical solution exists.

Nature is angry, and tries to impose an equilibrium the hard way! If we want to avoid this we should take our measures and respect nature!

Dear Miranda,

I do agree with Dr. Bozsik. There is need to watch weather forecast and river basin conditions. Since there were weather warnings issued a week or so before depression/high precipitation it was not case of sudden flood.

Flood controlling system of dams is just a solving of consequences of floods. I think more attention should be focus on prevention. Healthy/stable ecosystems are essential in suitable river basin management. A holistic approach - integrating of landscape potential, human needs and demands on nature resources, rational management of human activities should be the corner stone of integrated river basin management. Agriculture expansion and urban landscape development usually brings change in soil conditions, vegetation cover or ecosystem stability. Built up of landscape with impermeable or semipermeable surfaces soil and vegetation loses their ecological features or ecosystem services.

If you are interesting for further information, I cand send you some papers dealing with this topic.

Best wishes!

Dear friends,

one example how floods are managed is Australia. Functioning evaluation plans,

early warnings, minimum loss of peoples lifes, a lot of technical/medical ressources are added to this. Very difficult at the moment for Estern European Countries. But not restricted to Eastern Europa only! Germany for example got several floods with huge damages.

And yes, some floods cannot be stopped. Maybe we should give them space to culminate in areas where less damage could be take.

To prevent sudden severe floods we should develop: modern technical fleet; latest dredgers and dredging Dredgers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dredger), suction dredger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suction_dredger); dredging fleet.

I agree with Frank that functioning evaluation plans, early warnings, minimum loss of peoples lives..etc. are necessary steps to prevent sudden severe floods.

Thanks for your views. We agree that 'a stitch in time saves nine', there must be warnings, people must do the maintenance work on repairing embankment. And, that we should strive to prevent loss of lives.

In my place, we have flash floods in some cities like Kuala Lumpur, also due to over development and poor drainage. We also have annual floods, the people are instructed through TV, to take just the essentials and follow directives of the police in charge. Schools and town halls are the normal places for evacuees.

Yes Ed, some big floods cannot be stopped. The trouble is that it's recurring so often. Our previous Prime minister advised that we should build houses on stilts. Actually it's good advice; rather than loss of property due to flood waters rising about 1 metre.

"We learn geology the morning after the earthquake."

We are not proactive enough. Often the government overlooks the issues that are critical, and goes for what is expedient to it from the view point of its own interest. Only few countries actually do proactive planning of such disasters. And, poor citizens pay the price.

Prof Debi, what you say is true. It's the same in my place and many more countries, I think.

But should it not be the job of certain experts to monitor the situation, so that the heavy rainfall can be taken care of, because water is such a valuable resource? Maybe friends like Raoof are experts in this? What can be done?

This is the latest news I could find about this matter.

'Emergency workers in Serbia are preparing for a "flood wave" on one of the country's main rivers.

Water levels on the River Sava are expected to peak later, threatening the country's biggest power plant.'

Experts say it is about a thousand year water, in other words, it occurs once in a thousand years!The next few days the risk increases, the rivers Sava and Danube are on the rise! Thermal power plants Obrenovac and Kostolac are in great danger!

Have a look, consequences are immeasurable!

Dear friends, you have more photos, scary, by following the link!

So, the problem is compounded because of the land mines. This has just dawned on me; I have never seen a real one before.

Dear Miranda

I agree. It is not fair to blame only the government.

Someone has said rightly: "Those who tolerate injustice commit bigger wrong than those who do it." We as citizens must bring it to the notice o the authorities about the vulnerabilities that people suffer from.

It is rightly said, "Even the mother does not feed the baby till s/he cries." So you have to ask for things. You are right, dear Miranda. Experts owe a responsibility to the society to exert enough pressure for getting these things corrected.

I think Danube has to be treated more careful, since it is the main cause for floods. The 'how' is not in my specialties.

@Demetris,

you are right with the streams, Danube is not the single great stream causing problems, remember Elbe, Rhein, Missisippi etc. All the time the same picture. Astonished people, who don´t understand a little of their fates.

But the Serbia-Bosnia problem is mainly caused by the strong and permanent local rains, especially the destroying and killing landslides, which don´t occur in the plane regions but typically in hilly landscapes, where streams don´t do their work.

What we need in such situations are large natural detention reservoirs with their immense capacitance. If one concentrates the rivers and streams to small limited trails, each excess of rain or meltwater bursts the limit of the constricted rivers and causes the known catastrophies.

Dear Miranda, Hanno, Debi, Ljubomir and András, thank you very much for the important contribution, explanations have allowed me to know a lot about this important topic .

Dear friends, on 'Blic online' below, there are links to contribute to the relief of this catastrophe. For all of us who can do without a lunch, please skip the lunch :)

Flood planning requires accurate long term planning. The data needed is the long term estimation of the rainfall in the catchment areas, and a means of good forecasting to see how the river level is expected to raise. This prediction should improve with more data, if the government maintains long term data. Based on this it is possible to plan the necessary diversion of the water through canals, plan the dykes or embankments to make sure that water remains in place and flows regularly. The government can do a lot in this but people will also have to cooperate.

However all this work if the rainfall is more uniform over the period as forecast. Like in the current situation if there is a sudden deluge of rain like what has happened nothing can be done except rescue efforts. To reduce the landslides, afforestation will be the only method.

Here is wiki link for the floods in Bosnia and other regions.

Thank you friends, for bringing in your thoughts. I agree:

'Flood planning requires accurate long term planning;

control deforestation around the world, since it affects the hydrological cycle everywhere;

To reduce the landslides, afforestation will be the only method.'

One more catastrophe which has been brought on mankind by mankind! After the crisis is lessened, planning and implementation to avoid any further destruction should begin on a war scale!

Dear Hanno,

Theoretically you are right but the decision makers know very well that the forests were cut out about at least 50 years ago and their experts are aware of the troubles you listed. Who can be blamed for the present situations?

Dear Miranda,

I feel one can add to your propositions the international co-operations.

Dear Miranda,

Against nature, it is hard to resist. The best and intelligent solution is to prevent its (un)predictability or its needs to an equilibrium state through heavy floods or earthquakes. We need to take care of nature from forests, rivers, seas care, and respect their equilibrium state from pollution, human and industrial wastes

Dear Fairouz,

Your proposition is splendid among reasoning sides. However, how is it possible to demand the parasite of Earth to behave like one part of the biosphere?

Yes @Andras, it is difficult, may be with more advising

@Hanno, I think I will agree with you, since you told us the precise cause (I was thinking - falsely - that it was Dunabe the cause, but this is not for Serbia & Bosnia)/ Another benefit for those countries, if they adopt such a policy, is that they will be able to produce electric power with almost zero cost (after some years ofcourse). Yes, why not! Small and medium size hydro-electric projects.

I agree with most of the suggestions and thoughts in this thread; however, I think that planning is the key solution to the issue of destructive floods in east european countries like Serbia and Bosnian-Herzogovina.

There are pros and cons for all types of hydroelectric projects. Here are a few links that clarify good number of points related to hydroelectric power plants.

Serbia floods threaten country's biggest power plant.

Sandbags stacked around Nikola Tesla plant 20 miles outside Belgrade as thousands of people are evacuated in Bosnia.

Implanting more trees (forests), construction of damps, better forecasting, building reservoirs and canals. Work globally to decrease the effect of climate changes

@all

Thank you all for kind words. The situation in my country is very, very sad and could be even worse the next days, the water level of the river Danube increases dramatically...

Thank you all, once again for your concern, especially thanks to Miranda for this question ...

We all pray for the safety of all people in Serbia and Bosnia. Our heart and prayer goes with them

A lot of empathy and feelings for your horrible situation in Serbia and Bosnia. I hope you stand through and survive!

@all

This is some pictures...

Thanks again to all

Some recent news headlines about the floods:

I believe that each region requires a specific study. There are no universal solutions. Admittedly, it is necessary to invest in projects, then you need to invest in prevention works.

Flood mitigation is far more serious problem. It is necessary to bring all the stake holders into accepting what is good for the whole. Rarely do we see that the individual stake holders go beyond what is good for them. The result is that there is no holistic plan that will be useful for everybody. Some people have to sacrifice for the overall benefit of the nation or region. If not done properly it is going to create more problem than it solves. See the example of three gorges dam on river Yangtze in China and the various controversies that have taken place during the entire saga spanning almost four decades.

Thank you friends, besides giving, we will watch and pray. The situation next week will be critical. Such things can happen to us, when we do not expect...

All our prayers and best wishes with the affected, may god be with u !

I think any general solution for all is not possible...

Need categorize , then implement solution..

Catastrophic flooding in Serbia, according to initial estimates, were damaged about 4,000 kilometers of trunk, regional and main roads (freeways, highways), damaged more than 250 bridges and triggered dozens of landslides.

The PayPal account was opened for flood relief, see link!

@Prof Ljubomir, I read that the problem was with people who were so unwilling to be evacuated. But they shouldn't be so. They must move when the rescuers come for them.

Because we have annual floods, our people are used to being evacuated to schools or community centers where their basic needs are provided. Evacuees only have to save their documents.

31.000 people were evacuated since now. Police and army forces - rescuers do not face such problem any more! People have learned a lesson. Preliminary estimates are that the flood damage is at least 1.5 billion euros up to now. It is not the end yet! :(

By today, was the level of the rivers still too high, or has it decreased?

Was there any danger caused by the landmines, to anyone, today?

A large flood wave coming by Danube! Superposition of the Danube and Sava rivers can be disastrous! It is expected to happen later this week!

Danube can not receive Sava's water in full,so some water is returned to Obrenovac because Sava hit Danube!The effect of the return wave!

Dear Ljubomir,

Your hint gives new sorrows. I´ve heard in TV that the dams and barriers in Beograd are only small. Will that harm the town?

Dear all

I am Belgrade, near Danube. As far as I could hear on the radio this morning, Danube has started rising. How much will it rise,...is an open question. I crossed the Sava on my way to work, and it has become really large. Very badly hit by the flooding is the town of Obrenovac near Belgrade. Yesterday evening it was evacuated completely, and no return until he situation calms. In Belgrade proper, there should be no problems...

Thanks for the info, Vladan. It's good that work goes on as normal for you, but what are the sectors that have been affected: farming, mining, school, what else had to stop? So sad :(

Addendum: Obrenovac is near Sava,..so problems with high water are expectable. Although, this year this is a complete disaster. However, there is aplace called Krupanj, which is half destroyed, due to torrents of water+mud.

Dear friends, let's have a good look at the country and the RIVERS. Before this, I only knew the Danube, and that's because of J. Strauss.

Dear All,

It would be valuable to collect geographical areas in our neighbourhood where man indicated natural catastrophes can occur in the future.

This is more important than to be simply emphatic!

Dear András,

if you start to collect regions, or all the other peers here, we don´t change anything. Most of us know where these floods will appear. Politics must collect and show useful quick and longtime reactions.

Our heart and prayer for all the people who suffer from this disastrous flodd

The response is simple, the only sytem which can prevent unexpected severe floods is only miracle. Which might sound cynical, but we had first-hand experience with such floods three times, the first of them covered one third of country. It also included backwave from Vltava to Labe.

The first thing which will be needed is probably bottled drinking water and food supplies. For removal of flood result it will be needed a lot of dessinfection materials, broomsticks etc. and plenty of man-power. Then probably dryers for wet houses. And also ani-mosquito sprays because of large lakes, remaining long after the flood is over.

We have quite fine systems of movable barriers which are dimensioned on "1000 yrs water" (about 2 metres high) which basically saved historical centre of Prague in 2002. They have been built later to protect vulnerable area, but in some cases even that wasnt enough.

Dear friends, I agree it's a job for the leaders of the country and the experts in these fields. But each of the citizens can create a lot of awareness. When this cycle of flood is over, it's time to see that improvements are made to the present system.

We must work as soon as possible. We cannot even wait till the rains come again in spring and summer, that is already too late.

@Tomy, thanks for practical views.

Yes dear Miranda, I support your view. All member of society are responsible

The flooding was caused by an extra-tropical cyclone (Tamara) as stated by NASA!

Nasa have given some images on severe flooding here! :(

Dear Ljubomir,

thanks for the link. Very imposing maps.

By the comparison tool (Ljubomir's link) you can see that for an extreme kind of probability all rain dropped exactly above the main rivers of Serbia, see attachment.

Indeed, very interesting coincidence...

Dear Hanno,

I do not want to be harsh but I thought that a man should act and not lament! Do you mean that our discussions are like - ein Schlag ins Wasser – talking to a brick wall?

Certainly, I am aware that we, simple soldiers of science cannot decide.

However, where are the big potatoes, the decorated experts, the influential advisers of policy makers, the generals of official science?

Dear Miranda and Kamal,

Fault and responsibility of average people often are their simplicity and that they believe in old tricks of leaders. Please, try to distinguish in questions of responsibility. Most people have but an opportunity to decide once in every 4th year.

I note: I think the responsibility of e.g. our friend, Ljubomir converges to zero in the present flood!

Dear Hanno,

What can we do?

To arrange an international organisation (?) to harmonise flood prevention e.g. along the Danube.

Of course, this would need money.

It would be interesting to calculate the rate of wasted money in EU (pseudo-scientific) projects? Many of them need highly sophisticated lip service but not merits or real efforts for human welfare.

Dear András, now you are lamenting about wasted EU money, what are you going to prevent this? ;-)

But to be serious, if you want to change the water stituation with our great streams like Danube and all the rivers filling it, you can try to bring all the neighbouring states to a round table. The interesting groups are different states, industry, farmers associations, lumber industry, city planers etc.

I think you have some idea about the success of such a difficult thing to undertake.

So my remarks are just a sign for the complete helplessness and not for changed gender.

Dear Demetris, from your observation, can we say that the area is a natural watershed? It's been a long time since I learned Geography of Europe. So I checked:

'A watershed is the area of land where all of the water that is under it or drains off of it goes into the same place. John Wesley Powell, scientist geographer, put it best when he said that a watershed is:

"that area of land, a bounded hydrologic system, within which all living things are inextricably linked by their common water course and where, as humans settled, simple logic demanded that they become part of a community."'

Dear Miranda,

so far I know, A Watershed is a region, where the water "decides" to flow to one side or to the other side of a mountain, hill....

Dear Hanno, it's been a long time since I learned Geography, so I recall too little. I was 16 when I learned geography of Europe. Maybe RAOOF can enlighten us more? I need a refresher course!

By the way, our friends like Raoof and Pardis who are students can be exempted from contributing, but the rest who are working could do so. It is more blessed to give than to receive, although that is not the thinking of this world in general :)

Dear friends, we have annual and flash floods in my country. Every year it floods around November. But last year the floods came around January. At times my home area is flooded, but it's just the roads. So I haven't had to evacuate.

But the govt has been in power since 1957, the year Malaysia became independent.

Dear Miranda, I am not so sure that here we have such a situation...

Dear Hanno,

I do not lament, I call for resistance! ;-)

I think the main trouble is that most of the leaders of these countries are insular and cannot see but their own often egoistic interests.

Dear Andras, in my humble opinion, a serious error or neglect or fault can be forgiven. But not when it's repeated. It's the same for my country in the case of the missing airplane. It caused huge losses. I think few people will forgive a second neglect. We must learn from our errors!

With regard to unexpected crises, rules are simple.

The first such crisis management is based on improvisation and goodwill.

The second such crisis management is based on experiences from previous one, which might not be applicable fully or partly on current crisis.

And only the third crisis management is handled on predefined routines and common sense (if all goes well and it is the same type of crisis).

The reason is simple. Protective measures need special "paranoid" way of thinking, as basically any security measure, based on ballance between the worst case scenario and costs. If the approach type "It has never happened thus it will never happen and it would cost too much!" is used, then the trouble is usually right around the corner.

Europen approach is described country by coutry on below mentioned pages.

Dear friends, Prof Ljubomir Jacic is busy working on this matter today. He has emailed this info, some 6 hours ago:

'I came to RAM, my wonderful place at Danube! I have hardly driven since the road was flooded! Tomorrow I have to take care and to try to prevent damage from Danube!'

It is everything under control! I am aware that Danube continues to increase, it is critical to be this weekend, when the expected peak of the flood wave! Hope that it will pass with small damage!

Friends, now we get reasons:

'Ratko Ristic, a professor at the state Forestry Faculty in Belgrade, said poor coordination, chaotic urban planning and a lack of proper flood-protection mechanisms after decades of negligence were to blame for the devastation.

"The weather conditions were really unheard of in the last 120 years, but the damage wouldn't have been so grave if we took more care of our rivers and if we had a proper flood protection system in place," Risic told state broadcaster Radio-Television Serbia.'

Are there more news that you heard?

The EU has promised the speedy delivery of aid for Bosnia and Serbia, both observing national mourning after devastating floods over the weekend.

Thanks Prof N. Serbia may not have the Euros, but it has the expertise, and I think that it has learned a valuable lesson. The rest of us have also learned great lessons, along with them. Let's always remember the lessons that we learn through difficulties and sufferings!

Huge damage! International donors meet to help Serbia with flood recovery!

We still praying for the Serbian people. Take care my dear Ljubomir

Thanks for care my dear RG friends! Dear Kamal, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia...! Where is the end!?

Hope that they do not only meet, but they shall decide and spent.

Best wishes Ljubomir.

Thank you for the news. I am glad many European countries are coming to your aid:

'Serbia will see “very substantial” financial assistance from the European Union, including 30 million euros in fast-track aid for priority needs, the head of the EU delegation in Serbia, Michael Davenport, said.

The immediate focus is on providing adequate housing, public services, repairing schools, kindergartens, hospitals and sports facilities to “restore normal life and economic activity,” Martin Kern of the EU delegation in Belgrade, said.'

Water level of the Danube River is now in decline! Good news!

Very good news dear Ljubomir

Wonderful news, Profs Ljubomir and Kamal! And I hope the same concerning the Sava that is in Bosnia. The Danube must have been building up a great volume by the time it's flowing in Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria. But I'm not the expert on this.

Thank you all for your friendly interest. As of this morning Sava is in decline, the "flood wave" of Danube has not yet arrived to Belgrade.

And in the town of Sabac, which is on the bank of Sava, the river is also in decline...according to newspaper reports, which I have seen 2 minutes ago.

Thank you dear Vladan for the good new. we pray to God to protect all people

Thanks Vladan et al., we rejoice with you now, just as we understood your sorrows for the past week. On RG, we are a small global village. Many things, like joys and sorrows, are shared; and things need to be transparent.

Dear Ljubomir,

I hope you manage the following problems with missing clear water, food and infections. Best whishes and success.

After catastrophic floods that demolished many homes in Maglaj, locals told Balkan Insight they do not believe the authorities will do much to help them.

Thanks for info. I have read:

'23 MAY 14

Clean-up Starts in Flood-Sticken Obrenovac

As the floodwater recedes from the devastated town of Obrenovac, a major clean-up is underway, although local residents are not still allowed back.'

We pray that life will go back to normal very soon.